[MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

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[MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

Michael Schnell
Hi mse community,

Do you monitor the thread "Re: [Lazarus] Quick Video: A Web Application"
in the Lazarus mailing List,  saying: "Normally, early december a RC
version of pas2js will be released. pasjs currently is more or less at
the level of D7 compatibility (minus interfaces and pointers) ???

IMHO using mse it should be possible to be enhanced with an easy to use
framework for "rich Internet applications" by this. Making use of
goodies provided by mse (but not by Lazarus):

  - mse-IFI for doing a fully grown server based application with a
remote GUI
  - the IFI GUI part compiled by pasjs running in the Browser
  - WebSockets for communication between them

The not that much "Windows inspired" GUI in mse-gui might be better
suited to allow the GUI designer to create the resources for a
browser-based GUI.

-Michael

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

Michael Schnell
On the fpc mailing list:

On 16.12.2017 17:36, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>
> Hello fellow Pascal enthousiasts,
>
> It is with great pleasure that I can finally announce the first publicly
> available version of pas2js. A "beta" version, version 0.8.39. ...
> pas2js is a Object Pascal to Javascript transpiler. It compiles Object
> pascal, and emits Javascript. The javascript is usable in the browser,
> and
> in Node.js. ....

Maybe with that compiling the ifi "GUI" component to run in a Browser
(and have it attach to GUI-less fpc applications) is in reach...

For me this would be a major reason to use and recommend mseGUI.

(IMHO fpc for Webassembly would be even more viable, but AFAI this is
just in a very early stage right now...)

-Michael


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

mse
Administrator


On 12/18/2017 10:08 AM, Michael Schnell wrote:

> On the fpc mailing list:
>
> On 16.12.2017 17:36, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>>
>> Hello fellow Pascal enthousiasts,
>>
>> It is with great pleasure that I can finally announce the first publicly
>> available version of pas2js. A "beta" version, version 0.8.39. ...
>> pas2js is a Object Pascal to Javascript transpiler. It compiles Object
>> pascal, and emits Javascript. The javascript is usable in the browser,
>> and
>> in Node.js. ....
>
> Maybe with that compiling the ifi "GUI" component to run in a Browser
> (and have it attach to GUI-less fpc applications) is in reach...
>
AFAIK it does not support interfaces nor pointers.
Why not use one of the many javascript frameworks instead?

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

Michael Schnell
On 18.12.2017 10:29, Martin Schreiber wrote:
> AFAIK it does not support interfaces nor pointers.
> Why not use one of the many javascript frameworks instead?
>
Ifi provides the native visual components provided by mseGUI so you can
do a project and switch between local and remote GUI without writing any
additional code.

-Michael


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

mse
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On 12/18/2017 12:39 PM, Michael Schnell wrote:
> On 18.12.2017 10:29, Martin Schreiber wrote:
>> AFAIK it does not support interfaces nor pointers.
>> Why not use one of the many javascript frameworks instead?
>>
> Ifi provides the native visual components provided by mseGUI so you can
> do a project and switch between local and remote GUI without writing any
> additional code.
>
I doubt that it is possible to run such a complex program like MSEgui by
a "Pascal-Javascript-transpiller" and I doubt that it is a good idea to
run a high quality desktop application in a browser. If one needs a
browser application one should make a browser application with the
dedicated tools IMHO.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

mse
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On Monday 18 December 2017 15:43:26 Michael Schnell wrote:

> On 18.12.2017 13:40, Martin Schreiber wrote:
> > I doubt that it is possible to run such a complex program like MSEgui by
> > a "Pascal-Javascript-transpiller" and I doubt that it is a good idea to
> > run a high quality desktop application in a browser. If one needs a
> > browser application one should make a browser application with the
> > dedicated tools IMHO.
>
> I just suggest to try to run the GUI part of an "IFI" pair of
> applications in the Browser. (And of course not the mse IDE.)
>
Sure. Please have a look to the MSEgui sources, they are here:
https://gitlab.com/mseide-msegui/mseide-msegui/tree/master/lib/common

Do you really think that code is appropriate to run as Javascript?

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

mse
Administrator
In reply to this post by Michael Schnell


On 12/18/2017 10:08 AM, Michael Schnell wrote:

> On the fpc mailing list:
>
> On 16.12.2017 17:36, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>>
>> Hello fellow Pascal enthousiasts,
>>
>> It is with great pleasure that I can finally announce the first publicly
>> available version of pas2js. A "beta" version, version 0.8.39. ...
>> pas2js is a Object Pascal to Javascript transpiler. It compiles Object
>> pascal, and emits Javascript. The javascript is usable in the browser,
>> and
>> in Node.js. ....
>
> Maybe with that compiling the ifi "GUI" component to run in a Browser
> (and have it attach to GUI-less fpc applications) is in reach...
>
> For me this would be a major reason to use and recommend mseGUI.
>
Suggestion: Do it yourself or pay for it. Most likely an investment of
several 100'000 Euro.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by mse
On 2017-12-18 12:40, Martin Schreiber wrote:
> If one needs a
> browser application one should make a browser application with the
> dedicated tools IMHO.

Yup, our company is fighting that battle as we speak. Web apps users
have different needs and expect different behaviour to desktop
applications.

A case in point (which our company had to implement). A basic desktop
database application that uses some DB grid component - displaying some
100-500 records. Speed is good, and desktop users are happy. Web apps
simply take too long to load such an amount of rows, and doesn't scale
well. Instead, web users expect say 25 rows at a time and a Back/Next
set of buttons to page through the data, and maybe a better data filter
before data is displayed. Exactly why Google implemented that behaviour
in Gmail, and thousands of others do the same thing.

Desktop app vs Web app is not a 1:1 relationship. They require different
UI and backend designs.

Regards,
   Graeme


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by mse
On 18.12.2017 16:24, Martin Schreiber wrote:
>
> Sure. Please have a look to the MSEgui sources, they are here:
> https://gitlab.com/mseide-msegui/mseide-msegui/tree/master/lib/common
>
> Do you really think that code is appropriate to run as Javascript?
Of course this will be a decent challenge :-).

And existing code itself is not the only challenge. On top of that the
code would need to be enhanced to use the basic widgets (or whatever
such is called) provided by the browser, instead of the basic widgets it
currently use (and which supposedly are different depending on the
OS/Widgetset it is compiled for).

The original mail by Michael Van Canneyt suggests that something like
that would be planned with Lazarus.

I'm staying tuned....

-Michael


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Rich internet Application

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
On 18.12.2017 22:49, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>  Web apps users have different needs and expect different behaviour to
> desktop applications.
Not in my world :-).

Same consists of embedded software that most of the time does not need
any GUI at all. But usually a network connection is available.

But it needs to be monitored or configured whenever necessary.

Here either
  a) some hardware could be provided to have the maintainer do that
(i.e. a local GUI using some standard library (such as mseGUI) and some
standard widget set)
  b) a standard web server or web server interface (such as CGI or
Apache API) is implemented and a standard  browser is used to attach to
the device.
  c) some propriety protocol and a dedicated software to run on a PC is
implemented. The communication could be either defined by the GUI
library (-> ifi) or be propriety according to the needs of the
application (GUI and "Business-Code" separation).

Finally:
  b1) part of the application runs on the remote site in the browser,
the communication could be either defined by the GUI library (-> ifi) or
be propriety according to the needs of the application.


The application might either run on dedicated hardware or on a web server.

Now in a perfect world it should be possible do to a normal (mse-)GUI
application (->a) and just set a switch to compile it to work according
to (->b).

Of course it would be acceptable if only a subset of the full range of
visual components is provided in such portable way.

Obviously b) and b1) ask for pas2js (or even better for pascal to
webassembly) compilation.

-Michael

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